'The Sword We Refuse to Die On': Why Chip and Joanna Gaines Want to Take New Risks and Make Unexpected TV Shows How Chip and Joanna Gaines define their entrepreneurial mission — and why it's so important to their success.

Chip and Joanna Gaines have some new TV shows — and they're probably not what you expect.

When most fans think of the Gaineses, they think about home and lifestyle. Their first TV show, a home renovation format called Fixer Upper, helped launch a cable network (Magnolia) full of similar fare, along with a retail complex in their hometown of Waco, a large line of home products, and even a hotel business. But now they're also launching… competition shows on Max about roller skating (Roller Jam), rodents (Human vs. Hamster), and singing (Second Chance Stage)?

But to the Gaineses, this makes perfect sense — because like all great entrepreneurs, they've defined a mission for themselves. And it might be a little different from what you think.

"The sword that we refuse to die on," says Chip, "is somebody forcing us to do something we don't really feel wonderful about, and we put it out there because it's 'what they want' or 'what we're supposed to do.'"

You can hear our entire conversation here, or in the audio player. Below is an edited version.

When I saw this new slate of programming and how fun and clever it was, I immediately wondered: How did you draw the line between your past work and this? You guys have been so thoughtful about the expansion of Magnolia, so there must be a logic to it.

Chip: Jo and I are very adamant that what got us here was a little bit of thought and strategy — but what we loved was, it was risky. Now Jo and I are looking back on these two decades going, "What is it about this experience that we want more of?"

We had a thousand TV show options up on a wall, and at least temporarily it became a bit paralyzing. But as we started narrowing them down, we kept laughing because the four had really no clear through line. Then [President of the Magnolia Network] Allison Page said, "You know what? The one thing it does have in common is authenticity and joy. And that's what Chip and Joe have always been about." That just felt beautiful.

The sword we refuse to die on is somebody forcing us to do something we don't really feel wonderful about, and we put it out there because it's "what they want" or "what we're supposed to do," and then we regret it later because we knew all along it really wasn't about us and the things that we care about.

Joanna: When we think about Magnolia, whether it's the magazine, our shop, the network — the whole point of it for us as a company is: How do we bring people together for these meaningful moments? Because when we step back and see who's coming to the shops, it's every age. It's a girl's group of friends. It's a grandma, a grandpa, it's grandkids—it's family. And if you're together with the people you love, and you're watching something and all experiencing the same emotion, there's something really special about that.

Chip talked about not doing things just because it's expected of you. That's hard. It's often much easier to play by the numbers and say, "We know people want this, so we'll just keep doing it." How do you push yourselves to do more?

Joanna: I feel like that's innately who Chip is. He says, "Jo, life is just one big experiment." But my comfort is: "Let's do this for the rest of our lives and not pivot ever." That's where I feel the safest.

Chip: But how do you, as a person that doesn't feel comfortable doing that naturally, get to those places?

Joanna: The first thing that comes to mind is this idea of skydiving—which I've never done. But my whole life, with every decision I've ever made, I equate it to feeling like I'm standing at the edge of a mountain, and I have to jump by saying "yes." Most of my life, that fear kept me back. So I never felt the exhilaration of, I don't know what's next. I didn't want to. I wanted to know I was safely planted on the ground. But the more I exercised that muscle, the more exhilaration I could feel.

It's not addictive in a way where I'll always say "yes" to stuff. But when I hear Chip say, "Let's experiment," that means there could be a failure, but there could also be a win. There's something that's freeing about "Let's experiment."

So I think my mindset now is: How are we evolving? How are we creating? How are we keeping our eyes open? Because I feel like most of what we built has been pretty instinctive. It's been more gut. And no matter how big this business gets for us, that's really core to who we are: How do we feel? Even though it makes sense to say yes to this, if we're not feeling it, we're still gonna say no.

Joanna, you might think of yourself as risk-averse, but you also made a decision to trust Chip — a person who thinks totally differently than you. That by itself is a kind of risk-taking, isn't it?

Joanna: That's a really good point.

Chip: We've been married for 20 plus years now. Early in our marriage, I thought I was right and she was wrong. I was an optimist, and she was a bit of a pessimist—though she would refer to herself as a "realist." But as I've gotten older, I've realized that she has the much harder position. Risk-taking comes very naturally to me. I feel comfortable when uncomfortable. But for you, Jo, it was a very hard decision.

I have a friend who defines success as "distance traveled." Under the way that we're framing it here, Joanna, the distance traveled for you to these kinds of decisions is larger—which is the greater accomplishment.

Chip: Totally. Amen. She's very thoughtful, and that has been very helpful for someone like myself who is not.

Our team also helps push us. We love to have people around who are questioning our thoughts, questioning our intentions: "Is this right for Magnolia? Is this right for Chip and Joanna?" We also love people who go, "Hey, we actually agree with you, but here's a counter-argument."

How do you find people who can disagree with you, but that you still trust? It's not easy.

Joanna: Chip and I really value people whose lives are different from ours. We know we're gonna sharpen each other. In some ways, we find this middle place, and we're like, "Oh, we're alike in those areas." But for the most part, we find strength in our differences. We come to the table recognizing that those differences are going to make us see in a new way, and we're all going to come out of the room richer, smarter, more curious. I think that's the beauty of relationships, whether it's just a couple or it's a team.

As for how we find those people: I don't know if this is the right answer, but I think we attract all different kinds of people to work here with us. It's beautiful that when you sit at a table of 15 people, you look at everybody, and no one's life is the same.

Chip: It wasn't even real strategic. It wasn't perfectly intentional. But we wanted the people around us to care more about what we were trying to accomplish than our feelings or opinions on how to accomplish it. As a result, the ideas that we articulate are much, much stronger—because there were so many different angles that were considered as we were wrestling through them.

Jo and I joke about the inception of our show, Fixer Upper. The producers, and maybe even a network executive or two, were like, "You've gotta get outta Waco. This has to scale. Nobody's gonna be able to relate to this thing." But as it started evolving, people did relate—not because we appeared to be an odd couple with too many animals and too many kids, but to the contrary, we were a couple that really cared about one another and cared about our community and cared about our clients. And that resonated with people that lived in completely different ecosystems.

The bottom line of it all is: We want to provide opportunities for more and more people to talk about ideas that make them think about the world in a different way.

In other words, everything goes back to how Joanna defined your mission: How do we bring people together for these meaningful moments?

Chip: Man, brother — touchdown!